DUST Search - Caldari "Loyalty"

Edgar Reinhart wrote:

It's true, but only a couple of months ago when Cal were stomping Gal with a constant stream of organised Queue Syncs the same thing happened the other way, (Wound down a couple of matches in the MCC with Carne Con Papas then watched them stomp mercilessly on the Cal side for a month. Now they appear to be back to Gal).

As people say if the idea is that mercenaries do what mercenaries do then this is to be expected and there is nothing wrong with it. There just need to be a couple of little nudges to maybe make the idea of 'loyalty' points actually mean that.

For example I don't think it should be possible to be any more than, at best, level 5 in two competing factions

The winners do deserve the points and the spoils of war. However I feel that the punishment for losing is currently a little harsh. i.e No LP, No Salvage, very little ISK and in a stomp very little SP and very few missions completed. It all adds up.

I don't think necessarily that there needs to be any changes to salvage, isk or SP, to the victors go the spoils, but if the point of FW is earning loyalty points then there needs to be more incentive to join and or continue fighting for the losing side, whomever they may be.

I don't think LP payouts should be flat out buffed but what I'd like to see is the losing side being given a small incentive multiplier to continue fighting, and or attract other mercs to LP payout and possibly an ISK 'contract bonus' of somesort.

I think that it should be based on overall district ownership. If the ownership is 50/50 then LP payouts should be as they are. However as a faction gains more ownership a multiplier is applied to the other sides LP payouts. E.g if Cal are in control of 75% of faction space, Gal get a 25% multiplier to their LP payouts, win or lose. This wouldn't unbalance or reduce the worth of fighting for the stronger faction but would just give a little nudge and incentive to players who had decided to stay 'loyal.'

(numbers are off the top of my head because it's easy)..... and I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to point of the glaringly obvious exploit that I've failed to see that this all opens up.


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Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 110	Posted - 2015.11.18 13:04:00 - [1] - Quote I just wrote a post lamenting unbalanced matches in pubs, which I'm virtually certain are designed to be that way by CCP, for some reason. CFW is a completely different story, and one that needs to be in a separate thread but it's related, because, well, it feels the same... I have noticed (and so have others) that lately, Gallente is just stomping Caldari match after match. I've also noticed that there are a lot of players who used to play Caldari that are now killing me from the Gallente side. Clearly there is more SP and LP to be made fighting for the winning side. But what bothers me is lack of loyalty. In EvE, faction loyalty in FW is strong. The actual system makes it very hard for a player to play first one side, then switch and play the other. They become permanent targets for the other side, just by playing FW, increasing their standing with their chosen side and decreasing it with the opposition. Many go so negative they can't fly through opposition space. There is none of that here. A choice to fight for one side can be reversed in virtually an instant, and that is now showing in the CFW teams. I play mostly CFW but most matches, much more than 90% of them, Caldari loses to Gallente. I suppose it's human nature that people want to win, but is there no loyalty at all? A Dust friend told me that we're all mercenaries and therefore it's fair game to fight for the side that pays the most. And the fact that when you lose, you don't get paid as well, is an incentive to always win. Where is the reward for loyalty of continuing to fight for the side that's losing? The pittance of payout is hardly a "reward" and there's no standing increase with a loss. It doesn't look to me like the FW warfare system is designed to promote loyalty but rather destroy it with positive feedback for choosing to fight always on the winning side.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:13:00 - [2] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: We. Are. Mercenaries. We are loyalty to whomever pays us the most. Some of us embrace a particular faction. Others just want to get paid. Alena Asakura wrote: And the fact that when you lose, you don't get paid as well, is an incentive to always win. Where is the reward for loyalty of continuing to fight for the side that's losing? The pittance of payout is hardly a "reward" and there's no standing increase with a loss. It doesn't look to me like the FW warfare system is designed to promote loyalty but rather destroy it with positive feedback for choosing to fight always on the winning side. This I will agree with. Even if you lose a FW match there needs to be a small standing increase as a "thanks for trying". After all, I just died a dozens times for the [Insert faction navy here], shouldn't I be given a door prize? Yes, I agree. Thanks for trying would be nice, and I certainly think zero standing increase doesn't cut it. In fact, sticking with the losing faction should have more standing increase, not less. But I guess that goes against your first statement "We. Are. Mercenaries." - Indeed we are but here I run into a problem I've struck before. I'm an EvE Online player from way back. FW in EvE Online is a whole different matter - you pick a side and stick to it and the longer you're on that side, the more hated you are by the other side, to the point where my EvE main, Nalianna, can't even fly through Gallente hisec without potentially being fired upon, and that's not even due to FW, but just taking Caldari Navy contracts against Gallente forces. I guess some people will only ever want the money and winning, but "Loyalty Points" should reward LOYALTY, and staying to fight for Caldari when everyone else has fled to fight for Gallente sounds like "loyalty" to me.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:15:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The ease of switching sides in FW makes it a great deal more meaningless. Exactly! You can't switch sides like this in EvE FW. The longer you've been fighting for one side, the harder it is to switch.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:18:00 - [4] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The ease of switching sides in FW makes it a great deal more meaningless. This. It happens in eve as well, it's just much harder to do. Our standings system is very different from theirs. Ah! Another EvE player! Yes, it's a lot harder to do in EvE. In fact most people don't - they stay on "their" side. There are a few who very early on discover they're fighting for the "wrong" side whatever that means to them, and switch, but after you've been playing for a while, it becomes very hard to switch. Getting fired upon just for flying through the opposition's space, for instance. And the standings you have from FW stay with you when you leave the Militia, too...
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:20:00 - [5] - Quote Summa Militum wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The ease of switching sides in FW makes it a great deal more meaningless. I agree 100%. Yes, I agree. Actually, to me FW seems close to completely meaningless since you can switch sides at the drop of a hat. All it does for me, really is give me access to State Peacekeeper LP store gear. I feel like Don Quixote...
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:22:00 - [6] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: i can hardly even get into a gal battle. and the ones i do end up in seems to be against the exact same group of people.. also.. i joined on the gal side. so why am i jumping out of the caldari mcc? they should change the way the standing system works. the more you fight for one side the more your paid. while the opposing faction starts to hate you. and so that one day you decide to fight for the other team.. you get paid. next to nothing. Yes, I agree totally with this. But the game is set up to the liking of a select group of people, the CPM, who obviously want it this way. And if CPM is truly representative of the player base, by deduction, that should mean that the player base wants it this way. I don't think CPM represents me very well...
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 115	Posted - 2015.11.18 22:26:00 - [7] - Quote Golden Day wrote: Back in my days Cfw STF would stomp gfw Well, that's certainly changed. I only fight CFW and since I started (about 3 months ago) the matches have gone from about even to almost totally dominated by Gallente, much of the time with the same players, and many of them from the old Caldari side. I often find myself killed by a Caldari in full Caldari pro gear with a State Kaalakiota Specialist Rail Rifle.... And I'm the one on fighting for Caldari State Peacekeepers....
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.20 13:31:00 - [8] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: But I guess that goes against your first statement "We. Are. Mercenaries." - Indeed we are but here I run into a problem I've struck before. I'm an EvE Online player from way back. FW in EvE Online is a whole different matter - you pick a side and stick to it and the longer you're on that side, the more hated you are by the other side, to the point where my EvE main, Nalianna, can't even fly through Gallente hisec without potentially being fired upon, and that's not even due to FW, but just taking Caldari Navy contracts against Gallente forces. I'm not sure if this interests you, but I know a warbarge subsystem was discussed that would allow you to align with a faction for a period of time and receive bonuses for running FW for that faction. In exchange, the opposing factions would award less rewards if you ran them. It's not an iron clad "I will only fight for you!" but it's better than what we have now. Even in EvE the choice to fight for one faction or another is not ironclad. You can always change at will. It just has really bad consequences if you do...
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.20 13:35:00 - [9] - Quote Devadander wrote: I'm on board with the whole mercenary thing. But when it comes to fw I'm cal/ama all the way. It's one of the few ways I get more flavor out of dust. When I see turncoats, it gives me a battle objective to kill them at least twice. lol Yeah I've thought this would be good myself. Perhaps we could make a list, identify the turncoats and make a concerted effort to "penalise" them? Or would that be seen as victimisation and earn us a rap over the knuckles from CCP?... I think it would certainly be in keeping with the spirit of CFW... :)
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.20 13:51:00 - [10] - Quote Edgar Reinhart wrote: It's true, but only a couple of months ago when Cal were stomping Gal with a constant stream of organised Queue Syncs the same thing happened the other way, (Wound down a couple of matches in the MCC with Carne Con Papas then watched them stomp mercilessly on the Cal side for a month. Now they appear to be back to Gal). As people say if the idea is that mercenaries do what mercenaries do then this is to be expected and there is nothing wrong with it. There just need to be a couple of little nudges to maybe make the idea of 'loyalty' points actually mean that. For example I don't think it should be possible to be any more than, at best, level 5 in two competing factions The winners do deserve the points and the spoils of war. However I feel that the punishment for losing is currently a little harsh. i.e No LP, No Salvage, very little ISK and in a stomp very little SP and very few missions completed. It all adds up. I don't think necessarily that there needs to be any changes to salvage, isk or SP, to the victors go the spoils, but if the point of FW is earning loyalty points then there needs to be more incentive to join and or continue fighting for the losing side, whomever they may be. I don't think LP payouts should be flat out buffed but what I'd like to see is the losing side being given a small incentive multiplier to continue fighting, and or attract other mercs to LP payout and possibly an ISK 'contract bonus' of somesort. I think that it should be based on overall district ownership. If the ownership is 50/50 then LP payouts should be as they are. However as a faction gains more ownership a multiplier is applied to the other sides LP payouts. E.g if Cal are in control of 75% of faction space, Gal get a 25% multiplier to their LP payouts, win or lose. This wouldn't unbalance or reduce the worth of fighting for the stronger faction but would just give a little nudge and incentive to players who had decided to stay 'loyal.' (numbers are off the top of my head because it's easy)..... and I'm sure that there will be someone along shortly to point of the glaringly obvious exploit that I've failed to see that this all opens up. Some really good points here. Yes, your observations seem to concur with mine. And if you think about it, with the way Dust works, you're actually better off to organise to all be on the one side at any time. Just another way that CCP have really badly thought this through, or simply not, really. There's no real penalty for fighting first for one side, then for the other. In EvE, if you fight for one side, your standing increases for that side, but your standing actually decreases for the other side. Even for normal contracts this is the case. My EvE main has more than 9 standing with Caldari Navy, but in doing so, has dropped to about -4 with Gallente. Makes things tricky for dealing with Gallente, or even just flying through their space. If I were to switch sides, I would initially have a very tough time dealing with that -4 standing, and by the time I got it up to positive again, my 9 standing with Caldari Navy would be history. Quote: The winners do deserve the points and the spoils of war. However I feel that the punishment for losing is currently a little harsh. i.e No LP, No Salvage, very little ISK and in a stomp very little SP and very few missions completed. It all adds up. I agree with this. I think the concept of LP is wrong in Dust. Yes, the winners should get good payouts of ISK and obviously SP, but the losers should get decent LP just for sticking with it, not the pitiful consolation prize they currently get. As for the glaringly obvious exploit, I think they're already exploiting it, by farming first one side then the other, all to just get faction gear I imagine. Dust doesn't stop them, in fact, it's practically designed to help them do this, and CCP seems to be asleep at the wheel with regard to any such exploits. They probably don't even recognise them as exploits as such...

Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.20 13:55:00 - [11] - Quote Cesar Geronimo wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: I have noticed (and so have others) that lately, Gallente is just stomping Caldari match after match. I've also noticed that there are a lot of players who used to play Caldari that are now killing me from the Gallente side. Clearly there is more SP and LP to be made fighting for the winning side. But what bothers me is lack of loyalty. In EvE, faction loyalty in FW is strong. The actual system makes it very hard for a player to play first one side, then switch and play the other. They become permanent targets for the other side, just by playing FW, increasing their standing with their chosen side and decreasing it with the opposition. Many go so negative they can't fly through opposition space. As someone who plays strictly Gal FW and saw his team redlined 5 minutes into the round for 75% of my matches, all I can say is deal with it... So you're redlined for 75% of your GFW matches, and I'm redlined for most of my CFW matches. Clearly they aren't the same matches. The next question is, how and why is this occurring? It shouldn't be possible, unless somehow the system is deliberately creating weaker teams to go up against stronger teams (more squads?) so that the stronger team just dominates, no matter which side it's from.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.20 13:58:00 - [12] - Quote Russel Mendoza wrote: Devadander wrote: I'm on board with the whole mercenary thing. But when it comes to fw I'm cal/ama all the way. It's one of the few ways I get more flavor out of dust. When I see turncoats, it gives me a battle objective to kill them at least twice. And I would love to help hunt those turncoats by the way. I was Godsmacked when I saw people from stf fighting for gfw. That made me stop playing cfw, there is no honor and ther is no loyalty in new eden. Let me in stf again and I will show you the meaning of the word loyalty. FOR THE STATE!!!!! OOORAH!!!!! Actually, I think there still is honour and loyalty. We, the loyal, simply have to show it ourselves. Target the turncoats. That's what would happen in real life, why not in Dust?
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.21 13:57:00 - [13] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: Gallente has been stomping Cal since I can remember. Call it a stereotype all you want but console gamers are the most disorganized bunch. There are some on PC, but console gamers want to win at any cost...and thats it. So loyalty smoyalty, console gamers dont care about that crap. Their K/D brings all the girls to the yard, and they like, its better than yours. They would care about loyalty if there was some benefit to it. They way Dust is set up, there just isn't. I'd like to change that, but until then, we should show the disloyal what the loyal think of them... :)
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 128	Posted - 2015.11.22 11:08:00 - [14] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: Gallente has been stomping Cal since I can remember. Call it a stereotype all you want but console gamers are the most disorganized bunch. There are some on PC, but console gamers want to win at any cost...and thats it. So loyalty smoyalty, console gamers dont care about that crap. Their K/D brings all the girls to the yard, and they like, its better than yours. They would care about loyalty if there was some benefit to it. The way Dust is currently set up, there just isn't. I'd like to change that, but until then, we should show the disloyal what the loyal think of them... :) Dude, I'm honestly a bit peeved that the modern gamer needs incentives to entertain themselves through video games. Call me an old fart but if I chose a faction, I'm representing and going all in. This is why I made that console comment. Seriously what EVE players are getting from CCP for doing what they do besides the joys they make of it? Console players, the majority at least, needs incentives to quest. Benefits to choose a faction. Basically a bunch of "I showed up" trophy winners and its freak in terrible. It would have been awesome to see Cal organize on ground. You can bet your catnip CCP and the PC gaming community would have been shocked by the efforts. At the end of the day, people just want a faction item and to be on the winning side without putting any effort in. That sucks dude. Your words are such music to my ears (eyes)! Yes, it would be fantastic to see Caldari organise themselves to fight FW, but there just doesn't seem to be enough interest amongst the general Dust gaming community. It's very sad when the rise and fall of factions like Caldari or Gallente hinges on the whim of a bunch of scrubs that just want to win at all costs and change sides as necessary to do it. Yes, I'm an old fart too - you choose a faction and stick with it. On EvE, regardless of your words, people are very encouraged to stick with one chosen faction. The more you fight for one, the less the opposition likes you and that makes it harder to change. There's no such incentives in Dust. I guess that's because CCP were worried that if there were, people would feel like they didn't have their choice or that their choice had consequences, and CCP being typical CCP, they have no backbone in the face of anyone sounding like they might stop paying. Very sad really....